Dhimmi Я NOT Us
In light of some of the (expected) comments my posts and Gayle's posts have generated, regarding the use of words other than "jihadist" to describe the Islamic terrorists (and also in being able to distinguish the difference between their cultural and religious sympathizers, enablers, apologists, and supporters from that of moderate Muslims who embrace modernity, separation of mosque and state, and the divorce of politics and religious teachings), I thought I'd continue speaking out on behalf of the moderate Muslims who do not wish to dhimmify you and me. PBS may not recognize them as true Muslims since they aren't the CAIR-brand of moderates; but this lil' ol' blogger does.
I recalled seeing this video posted up by CJ back in February:
Also of interest: The American Islamic Forum for Democracy (the anti-CAIR).
I got to shake hands with Dr. Zuhdi Jasser a couple of months ago. An extremely articulate and courageous voice in the ideological war for the soul of Islam:
Please visit my previous post and read the comments section. I've also left a number of comments at Gayle's blog, and Amy Proctor's. It might help clarify and flesh out my position better than the posts, themselves.
I think this is an important discussion to have, and another front in the war against Islamic terrorism.
Check out Michael Medved's column, "Why Not Bomb Mecca?" It was also discussed first hour, today.
Also blogging related posts:
Bottomline Up Front
Conservatism with a Heart
Harkonnen's Hodgepodge
Mike's America
I recalled seeing this video posted up by CJ back in February:
This is the second in a series of videos from troops from all services about why they serve. Marine SGT Abdelhalim is a Muslim serving his country at Al Asad Airbase in Iraq. He is an avionics technician responsible for making sure that our troops' air support is on target and ready to go.Is he part of the "vast Islam-wing Conspiracy" to dhimmi-down western society? Or a true jihadist against the "false" "jihadists"? If nothing else, he is an American soldier, fighting for his country: the U.S.A.
Also of interest: The American Islamic Forum for Democracy (the anti-CAIR).
I got to shake hands with Dr. Zuhdi Jasser a couple of months ago. An extremely articulate and courageous voice in the ideological war for the soul of Islam:
Please visit my previous post and read the comments section. I've also left a number of comments at Gayle's blog, and Amy Proctor's. It might help clarify and flesh out my position better than the posts, themselves.
I think this is an important discussion to have, and another front in the war against Islamic terrorism.
Check out Michael Medved's column, "Why Not Bomb Mecca?" It was also discussed first hour, today.
Also blogging related posts:
Bottomline Up Front
Conservatism with a Heart
Harkonnen's Hodgepodge
Mike's America
Labels: AIF, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, Hearts and Minds, hirabah, Islam, Islamists, Jihad, military, War on Terror, YouTube
posted by The WordSmith from Nantucket at 8/08/2007 09:54:00 AM
25 Comments:
Good morning, Wordsmith. Those are two excellent videos! Thanks for posting them.
I don't understand why some people, really good people, find the concept of Hirabah verses Jihad so difficult to understand. For example, If you take two words that describe a soldier: "mercenary" and "patriot" they mean two very different things. There is a huge difference in those two words, just as there is in Jihadist and Hirabahist, so we actually complement them by referring to them as Jihadists. Why would anyone want to do that?
Hi Wordsmith: Great posting, as usual.
Thanks for leaving a comment on my blog while I was on vacation.
I'll be back over here to visit soon.
Have a great week!
There's been more discussion on the comment section of my last post referring to this subject. It seems we may be getting through! I also linked back to this post in the comment section.
I think most sane thinking people would agree that the so called moderate followers of Islam have done precious little to stand up to what we refer to as extremist Islamists. You have shown us some brave and dedicated individuals Word but those people are few and far between.
During WWII when war broke out with Germany and Japan the German American and Japanese American communities suddenly found that had come under suspicion from the rest of the country. Roosevelt went as far as taking away the rights of second and third generation Japanese and put them in Internment camps.
Those second generation Japanese knew they were going to have to prove their loyalty much more than the German American communities because many of those German communities had been established since the founding.
The Japanese Americans put a battalions of soldiers together called the Japanese 442nd Regimental Combat Team and the 100th Infantry Battalion. They served with great distinction in the North African and European theaters and were the most decorated units in US Army history. They felt it necessary to prove their loyalty to the US and show they were real Americans. They have my vote of confidence and the confidence of most Americans of that time.
The German American Nazis or "Bund" tried to recruit German Americans after Hitler's rise to power and form what was known as the "Fifth Column" but loyal German Americans stepped up to squash the Nazi movement and soon after the war was going in earnest a Nazi wouldn't dare to show his face around any traditional German American community.
In order for Muslims in this day and age to prove to me and many people that think like me is; they are going to have cut their ties with extremist Islamists and that includes CAIR and other national organizations to publicly and loudly proclaim their hatred and condemnation for what they say to us is a bastardization of their religion. They have not done that they have not stepped to the plate and it's been almost six years since 9/11. All they can expect from us at this point is for us to hold them at a distance and cast a watchful eye on them because they have left us no other choice.
I would like to see peace but not at the price of me surrendering to a religion that places me in the situation of being a second class citizen. I will be at peace with people that truly want peace and not just mouth the word while planning to attack me while I have accepted their word. There is a term for this but I’m fading fast as it is almost time for bed. Good night or good day.
Note: I left some of this comment elsewhere and still had it on my clipboard. Pardon me for taking a shortcut!
Well, I have a problem with Jasser's idea that the business community can effect a reformation of Islam because of the power of petro-Islam (which amounts to Wahhabism).
I think that the defining question is "What is the real Islam?" One reason that Wahhabism is being perceived by so many Muslims as the real Islam is that oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia. Much of the Muslim world take that as evidence that Wahhabism has the blessing of Allah.
I've come to conclusion that "the radicals" are practicing the real Islam because of that will of Allah doctrine. It gives me no pleasure to say this.
IMO, three possibilities as to how to discern between "radicals" and "moderates":
1. What is their position on the existence of Israel?
2. What is their position on the Medinan verses? Are they the most recent revelation from Allah or not?
3. Is the Koran the literal word of Allah (as opposed to the idea of the inspired word)? If it is not the literal word, then the Koran offers room for interpretation, and that would move Islam from the realm of geopolitical ideology to personal faith.
You know what I'd like to see? Hordes of self-proclaimed moderates as outraged by beheadings and other such barbaric acts as the groups we saw objecting to the Danish cartoons and to the Pope's statement a few months ago.
I learned a lot of the above from Dr. Hamid (who is a Muslim and not an apostate) and need to do another posting on what I learned at his lecture.
Also, HERE is an important essay, "The Bridge to 'Moderate' Islam Is In Fact a Road to Hell." Excerpt:
It is so much easier to accept the claims of authorities who assure us not to worry; ‘it’s just a tiny minority of extremists’, and ‘soon the great majority of “moderates” will triumph over the crazy zealots’. So we lull ourselves back to the comfort of our pretenses, serene in knowing that the “experts” have it all under control.
[...]
Islam in all of its forms and sects is simply an evil ideology that is practiced by all Muslims. Islamism is a pincer, with the world in its jaws between the end-of-the-world Shiism and the jihadist Sunnis. To the simple mind of western “intellectuals”, within every ideology there must always be “good liberals” and “bad conservatives”, and so they search in vain for the “moderate”, “reasonable”, “pragmatic” wing of any threatening ideology.
But in their enormous ignorance of the realities of Islam, they fail to realize that in Islam, the wings are not “left” and “right”, or “liberal” vs. “conservative”; they are two jaws in the same supremacist device that aims to crush the life of all non-believers....
And HERE is another: "Moderate Islam Is No Islam."
Both of the above essays were written by Amil Imani. I invite you to explore his site.
In sum, I worry that trying to discern between good Islam and bad Islam is similar to trying to discern between good Nazism and bad Nazism.
We need to be careful in trying to apply Western logic to Islam. After all, the Muslim world rejected critical thinking centuries ago with a reformation of Islam was attempted.
I also believe that until Saudi becomes moderate, lots of the things we bloggers are hoping for just will not happen. Will Saudi modify on its own? Not as long as they can sell oil to the West (I got that idea from a Saudi, BTW).
Wordsmith, oh please continue the fight. Extremist Islam is winning this war -- it's tragic.
Iran has won the Iraq war, thanks to appeasers and cowards who refuse to see a clear threat, refuse the hear the words of terrorists and blame those who do NOT chop off human heads for destorying those barbarians who DO chop off human heads.
Even at war, this nation sleeps. I fear for my nation.
I think we all fear for this nation. I will be interested in seeing your replies to this comment thread, Wordsmith.
I hate to disagree with AOW, but I find it difficult to believe that every Muslim believes that Jihad means they are commanded by Allah to murder infidels.
And I don't see any other alternative in dealing with the problem of the radicals that do think that way than holding up examples like Dr. Jasser.
It's clear that many Muslims, whether you believe there is such a thing as "moderate" or not, do not want to live in a Taliban society.
Another definition of a less radical Muslim (how's that for weasel wording?) comes from
Tashbih Sayyed who wrote the following in:
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/challenges.php?id=160219
"Who is a moderate Muslim?
Muslims who oppose theocracy, who seek democracy, who want equal rights for women and an end to child labor, honor killings, and child marriages are moderates. But there is much more to the concept than just these basics. Before enlisting an apparently moderate Muslim group in the war on Islamist terror, we must know a bit more. Do they believe that non-Muslims are inherently inferior? Do they consider religious or national identity pre-eminent? What do they believe about Jews and Israel? How do they characterize Arab terrorism in Israel? What is their opinion about Osama bin Laden's long list of grievances? Do they consider the war on terror a war on Islam? "
Those are all good questions, and I have another one: Where's Wordsmith?
Thanks for weighing in, everyone.
I will be interested in seeing your replies to this comment thread, Wordsmith.
gayle,
This is going to keep me busy, and I'm not sure if I have the time to respond to everything, right away. But here goes...
I think most sane thinking people would agree that the so called moderate followers of Islam have done precious little to stand up to what we refer to as extremist Islamists.
Well, jennifer, I'm either insane and non-thinking, or just not squarely in the camp of "most".
I too have felt frustrations, with that. But after watching Islam vs. Islamists (which is different from what was aired on FOX, Muslims against Jihad), I believe that you can, in part, blame the mainstream media for not covering those moderate voices. There have been demonstrations and protests by Muslims against terrorism and against the violence of al-Qaeda; but those do not get the widespread coverage that anti-American "occupation" in Iraq and anti-war protests get. You can thank, in part, PBS, for not bringing the voices of the true moderates, to millions of viewers. Instead, what we are left with, is groups like CAIR speaking supposedly on behalf of the moderates, and the Muslim Brotherhood trying to be portrayed as reformed, and moderate.
The Muslims I personally know, and the ones I meet, for the most part, are not much like the ones I see represented all the time in the media. They are not card-carrying members of CAIR making excuses on behalf of terrorism.
You have shown us some brave and dedicated individuals Word but those people are few and far between.
Are they? You know as well as I, how much perception gets shaped by the media reportage. They are as guilty of bias by omission, as by what they choose to cherrypick for coverage.
People like Dr. Jasser, Naser Khader, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, French journalist Mohamed Sifaoui, Toronto-based tv host Tariq Fatah might be some of the voices who have been given airtime; but I don't believe they represent a dim minority. Not every mosque in the US was funded by Saudis, promoting wahabbism and espousing criticism of U.S. foreign policy. And even if some are critical, so long as they aren't fueled by the radicalization gene inherent in the strict constructionist interpretation of the Koran, I'm not worried ( to the degree that they will blow themselves up to blow me up) anymore than I'm worried about the millions of lefties in this country who bash U.S. foreign policy, U.S. history, and this Republican Administration.
As Michael Medved puts it, "The core problem of Islamo-Nazi terror has always been the fierce intensity and determination of the few, not the passive hostility of the many."
Many people around the world express anti-Americanism and criticism against U.S. foreign policy. Not just Muslims in the Middle East and around the globe. But only a minority of them take it to the extreme of "jihad" and violent action. Pointing out to me the honor killings, the anti-Israel rage, the prejudicial supremacist attitudes toward non-Muslims, the suppression of women's equality and the wearing of hijabs, are all problems of culture; and a separate although related issue. Our complaints against these things should not be confused with the Islamic terrorists who express thoughts into violent actions.
People can think whatever the hell they want about me. Whether it's a Muslim in Indonesia calling me a filthy, dirty American, or a secularist Frenchman calling me a filthy, dirty American. I don't care, so long as he's not trying to blow me up. I think we conflate the terrorist threat, by throwing all these other peripheral problems and grievances and prejudices we have against the whole Muslim culture and religion in general...and Islamic terror gives us the excuse we need to act upon our own paranoia and bigotry. Far easier to lump them all together, and then paint them all to be of the same mind; even the ones who aren't actively taking up "jihad" against the west, physically.
Jennifer, I hope that wasn't taken personally, as I'm just addressing whoever may be reading this, from my soapbox, using your comments as a springboard for my own thoughts to launch in tangent directions, to what's been troubling me.
They felt it necessary to prove their loyalty to the US and show they were real Americans. They have my vote of confidence and the confidence of most Americans of that time.
My mom being Japanese, I have very strong ties with the Japanese-American community, and their history in this country. Unfortunately, many of these families have been poisoned by the same liberal bent (we call them "democrats"), and align themselves with Muslims in this country who feel overexaggerated persecution and fear for their civil liberties. We certainly don't alleviate those fears when we express disgust and lash out insults to Islam, rather than focus our rage against the Islamists.
Anywhere from 10 to 20,000 Muslims are thought to be serving in the military. Only about 3500 are known about, as they aren't required to disclose their religious affiliation (Here's another Muslim-American soldier, expressing his thoughts). Why should Muslim-Americans feel encouragement to join the U.S. military if we crap on their religion in general, rather than pinpoint the Muslim extremists who are apostates to THEIR brand of Islam? Who are we to tell the truly peaceful Muslims that, "No...Islam isn't a religion of peace: It's a religion of submission, evil, subjugation, intolerance, and violence. You want to turn me into a dhimmi or convert." It only reflects back upon ourselves, and grants validity to those Islamists who want ALL MUSLIMS to see us as hostile enemies of Islam. We give the Qtub theorists exactly what they want.
In order for Muslims in this day and age to prove to me and many people that think like me is; they are going to have cut their ties with extremist Islamists and that includes CAIR and other national organizations to publicly and loudly proclaim their hatred and condemnation for what they say to us is a bastardization of their religion.
Provided readers with a link to AIF. I feel like when these types of moderates speak out, we simply are choosing not to listen, because of the loud din from the Islamists and their apologists (CAIR), who are more concerned about their civil liberties being violated and about racism and religious bigotry. Some of that is justified concern.
They have not done that they have not stepped to the plate and it's been almost six years since 9/11. All they can expect from us at this point is for us to hold them at a distance and cast a watchful eye on them because they have left us no other choice.
I've felt this same way; but now I'm asking people- pro-war on terror conservatives in particular- to take just ONE step back, out of our partisan shell, and not choose to hear only what we choose to hear and focus in on.
I would like to see peace but not at the price of me surrendering to a religion that places me in the situation of being a second class citizen.
And I am telling you, that not all Muslims want to do that to you!
There's a line between being awake with vigilance and conspiratorial paranoia. I don't know where that line is; but I'm warning us all, that we are at risk of stepping over into that area, if we don't watch ourselves.
We start seeing and hearing only the bad and the negative stories about Islam. Anything that shows to the contrary gets poo-pooed or dismissed as "not the norm but the exception". Like the moderates I speak of, and those serving honorably for America, in our armed forces.
How does it help when an elected leader of the United States- someone who represents a vast majority of Americans, like Tom Tancredo, - talks about nuking Mecca and Medina? How does that help advance the public discourse? How is that supposed to appeal to the Muslim moderates? Are they supposed to be happy with that? How about the 1.3 billion Muslims all over the world? How are the non-terrorist supporters supposed to take that? We end up becoming the monster that the anti-American Muslims say we are.
I will be at peace with people that truly want peace and not just mouth the word while planning to attack me while I have accepted their word.
We are all against the Islamist threat. We are all on guard against CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood speaking out of both sides of their mouths.
We should not be shooting ourselves in the foot, risking alienation from those Muslims who are fighting and dying at the hands of the Islamists. Brave Muslims like Mohamed Sifaoui has to have 24 hour protection by the French government, because of his work at exposing the Islamists. Maybe you are right and they are too few and far in-between; but they should not be dismissed and ignored, because they don't fit in neatly with our entrenched dismal views of Islam in general.
There is a term for this but I’m fading fast as it is almost time for bed. Good night or good day.
It's a new day. Please continue. This is all I have time for now. But I appreciate aow and mike's comments as well.
donald douglas, good of you to drop in. These last couple of posts is the radicalized moderate in me. I hope you do read all of this recent stuff, here and elsewhere, professor. I'd be curious to know your opinion, since you seem to be rather center right, as well.
It is good to see that, after some time, "moderates" are becoming visible. Invisible as they have been, it does nothing for their religion.
BZ
"In order for Muslims in this day and age to prove to me and many people that think like me is; they are going to have cut their ties with extremist Islamists and that includes CAIR"
I would just add that the Council of Arab Islamic Radicals does NOT speak for the majority of Muslims in the U.S.
There are approximately 7 million Muslims in the United States, but CAIR's paid membership, has decreased by 90% since September 11th to only 1,700 people.
They don't speak for all Muslims in the same way that the National Organization of Women speaks for all women.
But here's the problem, CAIR has been legitimized by the "news" media. Look at the story of the two Muslims stopped here in SC with what was reported to be pipe bombs. The "news" media goes back to their home town in Florida and who do they put forward as a spokesperson for the local Muslims: The CAIR guy of course.
It's pretty clear, and also very odd, that the "news" media goes out of it's way to ignore the moderate muslims.
Do they do so because the more moderate Muslims don't throw out the red meat about hating Bush that the media believes and wants to transmit?
Wordsmith, great discussion going on over here.
Thanks for stopping by my blog and commenting, especially addressing the whack job commenter that left her drivel.
I'll be back.
Glad to have found your blog via Gayle's blog. Nice work you are doing here. Please stop by mine anytime.
Word, I do not take offense to anything you say in our discussion here. I have strong feelings about Islamic terrorism because I have witnessed with my own eyes the resulting effects.
We would place ourselves in a very precarious position by not being very cautious and very wary of those that would attack and kill us in the name of their religion.
Even before 9/11 we have been at war with Islamic terrorists and here in the United States we have witnessed the hatred and bigotry that many people that follow Islam have for my Jewish friends.
The "Nation of Islam" has since it's inception espoused the destruction of the Jewish State. They will deny it to your face but the public outbursts and demonstrations of hatred for all things Jewish have been well known for years. They have tried hard to conceal their public displays of hatred in recent years but it is alive and well kept from the eye of the public because they understand the scrutiny that has been placed upon them.
I think I give everyone a fair shake when it comes to proving character and mettle as far allegiances go. I understand that there are people that have fled the middle east and have come to this country to escape the Islamic facism and I commend them for their efforts.
Having said that though, the roots of religous bigotry can be very deep and I for one will not let my guard down for one minute all the while waiting to witness something equally as compelling as what your Mother's or possibly Grandmother's generation (Issei, Nisei)? and what the German community did to suppress and eliminate all connections to the "Bund" and the Nazis in the Fatherland. It's going to be quite some time before that happens.
My ancestors had to prove their allegiance too when they came here from Ireland just before the Civil war. There was rioting in the streets of New York and Philadelphia from those that objected to fighting in a war not of their making to free people that would be in direct competition for jobs if they were freed.
The leaders of the Irish communities finally convinced the majorities what needed to be done so they formed up to go fight the war under the banner of "Erin" and called themselves the Irish Brigades. They understood if they were ever to become successful and accepted they would have to prove their allegiance to their new country. (plus the Irish just like to fight, anyone;-)
I guess I'm somewhat jaded and hard to convince and unlike when I was young when I was very trusting I need to be throughly convinced of something before I support anyone or any group. That's why history is so important to me as it should be to everyone. There is a history with Islam and how it has dealt with host countries in the past. It doesn't bode well but like I said earlier I think I give a fair shake to everyone to prove themselves.
I only know you from this confounded computer thingy but I think you're a fair a decent guy Mr Wordsmith.
I have always been very uncomfortable when some conservative bloggers have tried to brand all Muslims as bad. And I think we are starting to see a lot of the reasons why thats an inaccurate and unfair view.
Kudos to you for helping get the message out and thanks for the link.
I apologize to the other commenters, if they feel ignored; but I only have time to zero in on jennifer (don't think I don't love any of the rest of you, any less):
Word, I do not take offense to anything you say in our discussion here. I have strong feelings about Islamic terrorism because I have witnessed with my own eyes the resulting effects.
I'm glad to hear it. I'm sure you do realize I have the deepest respect and fondness for you. You leave some of the best comments around town. Not the typical "great post!" one-liners.
We would place ourselves in a very precarious position by not being very cautious and very wary of those that would attack and kill us in the name of their religion.
Agreed.
Even before 9/11 we have been at war with Islamic terrorists and here in the United States we have witnessed the hatred and bigotry that many people that follow Islam have for my Jewish friends.
Agreed. Anti-semitism is a problem, in and out of Islam. But Islam/Middle-Eastern cultures in particular.
I think I give everyone a fair shake when it comes to proving character and mettle as far allegiances go. I understand that there are people that have fled the middle east and have come to this country to escape the Islamic facism and I commend them for their efforts.
Yes, and ufortunately, some of them will also arrive with their baggage of cultural/religious bigotry. Others will feel blessed that they have arrived in a country generally free of what they experienced in their native countries; and that here, they have the freedom to practice their faith without persecution by the government.
I guess I'm somewhat jaded and hard to convince and unlike when I was young when I was very trusting I need to be throughly convinced of something before I support anyone or any group.
And that's definitely not a bad thing!
I grew up, proud and inspired by stories- romanticized and not- regarding the 442nd. Nothing more heroic and inspiring than reading about how soldiers went to fight for a country that had their families behind barbed wires. They proved their worth and loyalty.
One of my favorite passages in a book called "Yankee Samurai" was bitter-sweet as an Issei father wrote a letter to his son, telling him that America has rejected him, and he was returning to the fatherland. But that he wanted his son to remain in America,and fight with the Americans. America was his son's country and he wanted his son to defend it. He charged his son not to do anything to dishonor him.
I don't really blame Muslims for not signing up in droves to prove their mettle and their patriotism. We live in different times and there's a lot in our society as a whole that is lacking. I think the 60's had something to do with that, and has reaped some great harm on subsequent generations here. And that's not to slight the brave youths who ARE currently serving in our armed forces. They represent among what's best in America.
That's why history is so important to me as it should be to everyone.
I love your knowledge of history. I learn something whenever you post and comment.
There is a history with Islam and how it has dealt with host countries in the past. It doesn't bode well but like I said earlier I think I give a fair shake to everyone to prove themselves.
History is somewhat in the eyes of the beholder. In western societies, we have largely demythologized our "heroes". To the conquerors, there is a romanticizing of a past age; for the conquered, our heroes are their villains.
I think some of the resentment and anger is a feeling of loss of prestige in the world and a yearning for the romanticized past, when Islam as a geopolitical force was as Rome once was.
But yes, Islam has a bloody and violent past, and passages in the Koran enable such shameful conduct.
I only know you from this confounded computer thingy but I think you're a fair a decent guy Mr Wordsmith.
Thank you, Jennifer. I fancy myself radically center-right.
zeppelin, I thought for sure I'd receive a scathing rebuke and pummeling from you!
mike, thanks for the reminder on the CAIR membership record. And for the good points.
steve,
Lol...you act as if we've never "met". You've posted here before, you know. I think we crossed paths through skye. But I could be wrong. The last comment I made on your blog had to do with your old address being hijacked by a leftie.
roxie, thanks for stopping by and commenting.
karen, the pleasure was all mine. Really, it was.
I have always been very uncomfortable when some conservative bloggers have tried to brand all Muslims as bad.
Dee, I've been feeling uneasy about that for some time. I think because it's the internet, sometimes we can type out our raw emotions, without tempering the language in a manner in which we'd speak "in real life". Similar to how aggressive we get behind the wheel in flipping people off on the road and honking our anger....only to look askance when we pull up together at the stoplight (unless you're REALLY angry- then you don't care, and just keep it up).
Some of the language I've seen people use- people who I am politically allied with- sometimes disturbs me. Would they say and express such sentiments to someone's face, if they weren't "hiding" behind the safety and security of their computer screen monitor?
I believe that you are exactly right regarding the computer anonymity, but it's hard to know for sure, Wordsmith. I would like to believe that most people who utilize some of the language you're referring to are not that way in real life, but who can know for certain? Like you, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt than not.
The following statement you made I find to be one of the best arguements for our case that I've heard so far: "Why should Muslim-Americans feel encouragement to join the U.S. military if we crap on their religion in general, rather than pinpoint the Muslim extremists who are apostates to THEIR brand of Islam? Who are we to tell the truly peaceful Muslims that, "No...Islam isn't a religion of peace: It's a religion of submission, evil, subjugation, intolerance, and violence. You want to turn me into a dhimmi or convert." It only reflects back upon ourselves, and grants validity to those Islamists who want ALL MUSLIMS to see us as hostile enemies of Islam. We give the Qtub theorists exactly what they want."
That does rather put it in a nutshell, doesn't it? We do not want to make the same mistake that was made during WWII with Japanese citizens! That would be a horrible thing and countries around the world would have a perfect right to call us evil. I hope and pray that it won't come to that, but if it should it will because of the unfair coverage of the MSM.
gayle,
I'm also reminded of the fact that Muslims have been fighting and dying at the hands of the extremists for decades now.
And also, in a recent post, I cited Michael Yon's experiences in one of his dispatches:
Abu Ali said that on 1 April 2007, he and his people attacked al Qaeda in Buhriz for their crimes against Islam. He also said something that many Muslims have said to me: al Qaeda are not Muslims. (Both Sunni and Shia have said nearly the exact same words, at times on video.) Abu Ali said they fought hard against al Qaeda, and on 10 April, they asked the Americans to join the attack. It worked.
~~~
Before the tape was running, I asked Abu Ali why he and the 1920s turned against al Qaeda in Buhriz. Speaking through LT David Wallach, a native Arabic speaker, Abu Ali said that “al Qaeda is an abomination of Islam: cutting off heads, stealing people’s money, kidnapping . . . every type of torture they have done.”
The recent stories of baked children came to mind. I asked if Abu Ali had heard about children being baked. Ali said no, he had not heard such a story, but he would not be surprised if it were true because al Qaeda had done so many crimes, such as cutting off a man’s head, putting it up on a stick and parading it around town.
We need allies of convenience like Abu Ali, as well as those nations in the Middle East who are also threatened by terror groups like al-Qaeda. Insulting their faith is one thing, and no way to win "hearts and minds"; honest criticism, responsibly made, quite another.
Thank you, Wordsmith. Agreed unconditionally! :)
Word: Did you mention Yon's observation to the guy at Gayle's place?
Or would he just say that Al Queda are Muslims, but just bad people?
I got a bit confused with that whole thing going over there. Hard to keep up.
Word: Did you mention Yon's observation to the guy at Gayle's place?
I don't know. We've repeated the same crap over and over to one another here (two posts down) and at Gayle's. At this stage, I don't see the point, anymore.
Or would he just say that Al Queda are Muslims, but just bad people?
If I understand him correctly, he regards all who practice Islam as practicing an inherently evil religion; yet rebukes me for concluding that he must then be calling all the practitioners "evil". And he seems to regard al-Qaeda as practicing true Islam, and the moderates I speak of as apostates. That may be fine- I'm not swayed one way or another, as it's not central to my original point. But he hates the fact that I don't regard "deviants" from fundamentalist teachings of Islam as devout practitioners. There's no room for "moderate Islam" in his book, and insists it is no longer Islam. To me, it's just semantics and him wanting to impose his own opinion and slant- to make me want to see things his way. I understand what he's trying to say. But I don't understand his insistence on "his way" as being "the truth".
I got a bit confused with that whole thing going over there. Hard to keep up.
It's tiresome, really, and I have so many other things to do right now than run in circles with him.
Well, here's some more ammunition if you want to pick up the cudgel again:
http://www.theirownwords.com/site/islamnotenemy
The main page on that site has the evil side of Islam. The link above contains video of the more moderate types.
I think I understand Abdullah's point of view that "moderates" would be regarded as apostates, though I did ask him AGAIN to clarify that. I've heard this before: there is only one way to be a Muslim.
But does that mean you either go out and butcher infidels or you are an apostate and will be killed yourself? I'll wait to see if he can answer that simply.
P.S. I hope you noticed how "nice" I was being to Abdullah. I took your advice regarding civil discussions. However, it doesn't seem to be bearing fruit with Repsac:
http://haloscan.com/comments/hiltonhead/6738880436307421428/#263532
He/she/it tried to hijack my post on the Dems Martial Law tactics in Congress and refight the presidential election in Florida 2000. And now that we've settled that (Bush won), back to shifting the goal posts on the original topic.
I'm beginning to think my role is more naturally that of a Cheney "Luuuukkkee, I am your father." I should just tell these moonbats to shut up and grow a brain and you could come along and play good cop.
I think I understand Abdullah's point of view that "moderates" would be regarded as apostates, though I did ask him AGAIN to clarify that. I've heard this before: there is only one way to be a Muslim.
If that's the way he wants to look at things, ok. But he wants to fixate Islam in the past, and deems its practice static; for any reformation that takes place makes it not true Islam, in his worldview.
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